Posts by Disillusioned JW

36

New Light, New Light!

by BoogerMan in

more accurately known as a reversal of a long held 'truth.'.

september 2022 study watchtower - par.

14 p. 18 - "in the past, we understood jesus’ words to refer to the deeds the resurrected ones will practice after their resurrection; that is, some will come to life and practice good things while others will come to life and practice vile things.

Disillusioned JW

On page 3 of this topic thread I wrote the following. "Well the WT's new interpretation of John 5:27 (as described in the first post of this topic thread) is now in harmony with Daniel 12:2, and the Bible's stated time frame for the fulfillment of that is revealed in Daniel 12:1." I notice that in "STUDY ARTICLE 40" of the same WT issue that the WT confirms what I said about Daniel 12:2, for there it says the following in paragraph 6.

'Read Daniel 12:2. What happens after the great crowd survive this time of distress? This prophecy is not referring to a symbolic resurrection, a spiritual revival of God’s servants that occurs during the last days, as we previously understood. * Rather, these words refer to the resurrection of the dead that takes place in the coming new world. Why can we draw that conclusion? The expression “the dust” is also used at Job 17:16 as a parallel of the expression “the Grave.” This fact indicates that Daniel 12:2 is referring to the literal resurrection that will occur after the last days have ended and after the battle of Armageddon.'

I am surprised though that the WT says that previously they (and other JWs) thought Daniel 12:2 was referring to a symbolic resurrection rather than a literal resurrection during the new world. For several years, from my independent study of the Bible, I had deduced that verse was about a literal resurrection under the reign of the Messiah (which according to the book of Revelation, is indicated to be during the 1,000 years in which Satan is in the abyss). Furthermore, a number of commentaries of 'Christendom' say that is what it was about. I also had thought (at least for several years) that the WT also taught that, and I also thought I had that view even when I was an active JW serving as a ministerial servant. But the WT now says they didn't have that view in the past. That means that I, and much of Christendom before me, reached the correct biblical meaning of Daniel 12:2 years before the WT did! [Update: Revelation 20:5 says most of the dead do not come to life until the end of the 1,000 years.]

A moment ago I looked through the First Printing of the Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy! book (copyright 1999) and I noticed on pages 290-291. There the WT says the verse does not refer to a general resurrection in the future, but that instead it "refers primarily to another kind of resurrection--one that has already occurred", namely a spiritual resurrection. I am surprised that it says such. It appears they said such in part due to their false teaching that Christ began ruling over the Earth in the year 1914.

Interestingly, paragraph 16 says the following. "But the majority of perfect mankind will pass this final test. Their names will then be written permanently in the book of life." That statement contradicts an earlier teaching of the WT which said that even after passing the test at the end of the 1,000 years some people might sin and thus be killed by Jehovah God.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

I had thought that original edition of the Gospel which is attributed as being according to Matthew (the one commonly called the "Gospel According to Matthew" and the "Gospel of Matthew") might have originally been in Hebrew or Aramaic and that it might have contained the name YHWH in it. But maybe no ancient copy of that gospel ever contained the name YHWH (or any variation of the divine name) - especially when quoting the words of Jesus and other Christians.

Various books and articles about the Jewish religion say that at about the 3rd century BCE the Jewish religion started forbidding Jews from pronouncing the name out loud. As a result if Jesus had used the name out loud publicly, he probably would have gotten in major trouble with the religious authorities specifically for doing such. Yet the Gospels never say the religious authorities (or anyone else) faulted him or anyone else for using the name. Surely if Jesus really existed and if he had spoken the name out loud publicly the Gospels would have said that the religious leaders faulted him for speaking the name. [A number of times the 'Gospel of Matthew' even says the "kingdom of heaven" as way to avoid saying the "kingdom of God", and that gospel was especially written to convert Jews to Jesus.] Though the gospels say that Jesus was charged with blasphemy, for claiming to be God (such as when using the phrase "I am" in reference to himself) and for claiming to be the divine Son of Man of heaven - it was not for speaking the name YHWH. Furthermore, all of the extant Greek NT manuscripts lack the name YHWH and virtually all of the extant Greek manuscripts of the OT lack it also.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism says the following. 'It had ceased to be spoken aloud by at least the 3rd century BCE, during Second Temple Judaism.[19] ... Rabbinical Judaism teaches that the name is forbidden to all except the High Priest, who should only speak it in the Holy of Holies of the Temple in Jerusalem on Yom Kippur. He then pronounces the name "just as it is written."[26] As each blessing was made, the people in the courtyard were to prostrate themselves completely as they heard it spoken aloud. As the Temple has not been rebuilt since its destruction in 70, most modern Jews never pronounce YHWH but instead read Adonai ("My Lord") during prayer and while reading the Torah and as HaShem ("The Name") at other times.[27][28] '

The Gospel of Matthew and in the Gospel of Luke tell the wording of what is now called the "Model prayer" (also known as the "Our Father prayer" and the "Lord's prayer'). That prayer though addressing God, never uses the name YHWH nor any form it, nor even the word "God" ("Theos" in Greek). Instead it addresses God as "Our Father who/which is in Heaven" (in the Gospel of Matthew) and simply as "Father" (in the Gospel of Luke). Online sources (such as the one mentioned above) say that even in our modern time, that when praying to God Jews are to avoid using the name "YHWH"/"Yahweh" or even "Elohim" (God). They are allowed to say "Adonai' ("my Lord") instead. The Gospels thus depict Jesus is adhering to the Jewish requirement of not uttering the divine name.

However there are writings from about the 1st century CE which say that some people used the divine name in magical rites, such as in incantations for expelling demons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism%27s_view_of_Jesus states reasons why people of the religion of Judaism reject Jesus as the foretold Messiah of the Hebrew Scriptures. Many of the reasons, ones based upon the Hebrew Scriptures, are ones I was not aware of. I am impressed by the vast majority of their reasons (note what is said under the headings of "Background" and "Jesus as the Jewish Messiah"). Such makes a strong case for rejecting Jesus as the Messiah/Christ, for rejecting Christianity as being the true religion, and thus for rejecting the NT as holy scripture. It can thus be used as part of set of arguments useful to atheists to persuade some Christians towards atheism. I appreciate that.

36

New Light, New Light!

by BoogerMan in

more accurately known as a reversal of a long held 'truth.'.

september 2022 study watchtower - par.

14 p. 18 - "in the past, we understood jesus’ words to refer to the deeds the resurrected ones will practice after their resurrection; that is, some will come to life and practice good things while others will come to life and practice vile things.

Disillusioned JW

The Holman Christian Standard Bible (HSCB) in the revision of 2003, though saying "freed" in the main text of Romans 6:7, in the translators' note says "Lit acquitted, or justified". That note agrees with the Emphatic Diaglott, for both in its interlinear translation and its 'modern' English translation it says "justified" at that verse.

The Twentieth Century New Testament, A Translation Into MODERN ENGLISH; Made from the original Greek (Westcott & Hort's Text) by a company of about twenty scholars representing the various sections of the Christian Church; REVISED EDITION (of 1904) translates the verse as follows. "For the man who has died has been pronounced righteous and released from sin." That rendering conveys both the idea of "acquitted" and the idea of "freed". In that NT translation verse 6 clarifies that the dead "man" of verse 7 who is "pronounced righteous" are those who metaphorically were "crucified with Christ".

As a result of those renderings and of quotes of translators' notes I posted in my prior post, I am now convinced that the NWT thus has a scholarly reasonable basis for saying "acquitted" in Romans 6:7 instead of "freed".

36

New Light, New Light!

by BoogerMan in

more accurately known as a reversal of a long held 'truth.'.

september 2022 study watchtower - par.

14 p. 18 - "in the past, we understood jesus’ words to refer to the deeds the resurrected ones will practice after their resurrection; that is, some will come to life and practice good things while others will come to life and practice vile things.

Disillusioned JW

Wow, I found something in a parallel Bible which agrees with the NWT's rendering of "acquitted" at Romans 6:7! It is an edition of "Today's Parallel Bible" (copyright 2000) which includes the 1995 revision of the NASB. In that Bible though the main text of the NASB says "freed" the translators' note says "Or acquitted'! The same parallel Bible for the Cambridge Paragraph Bible edition of the KJV (of 1873) has the translators' note of "Gr. justified".

The Cambridge Paragraph Bible was edited by Dr. F. H. A. Scrivener and one of objectives in the making of that edition was "to create the most thorough standardization of the text ever attempted." I consider that edition to be the definitive edition of the text of the KJV.

The NKJV gives in the translators' note gives an alternate rendering of "cleared" for the word which the main text translates as "freed". The Revised English Bible with the Apocrypha (REB) translates verse 7 as "because death cancels the claims of sin." The New American Bible (NAB) in its 1991 revision, a Catholic Bible, translates verse 7 as "For a dead person has been absolved from sin." Similarly The New Testament In Modern Speech, An Idiomatic Translation Into Everyday English From The Text of The Resultant Greek Texament - Fifth Edition (as reprinted in 1937), by Weymouth and revised by Robertson, translates verse 7 as "for he who has died is absolved from his sin."

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

slimboyfat what you said is exactly right. Furthermore, the Catholic who is claimed to have transliterated the divine name as Jehovah, actually did so as Iehovah into Latin - since "J" as a separate letter of the alphabet hadn't yet been invented. Furthermore in late Latin in modern German, the letter "J" has the same pronunciation as the English letter "Y". Not only that, but the Catholic who transliterated the name as Iehovah (now spelled Jehovah) didn't really invent the name. [Note: The original printings of the KJV it is spelled as "Iehovah", instead of being spelled as "Jehovah", in four verses where the divine name is used. I know that because I had a facsimile of the original printing.] He merely transliterated the name from a vowel pointed Hebrew text. Perhaps he didn't know that the Jews used the vowel points along with YWH to remind readers to say Adonai (My Lord) instead, but still since the vowel points were there he faithfully transliterated them.

Interestingly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah#cite_note-Kotansky-12 in footnote number 12 says 'Although most scholars believe "Jehovah" to be a late (c. 1100 CE) hybrid form derived by combining the Latin letters JHVH with the vowels of Adonai (the traditionally pronounced version of יהוה), many magical texts in Semitic and Greek establish an early pronunciation of the divine name as both Yehovah and Yahweh'. WOW! Jehovah might be right after all, at least if the "J" is pronounced the German way (as the sound of the English "Y")! The same article also says the following.

"Some Karaite Jews,[16] as proponents of the rendering Jehovah, state that although the original pronunciation of יהוה has been obscured by disuse of the spoken name according to oral Rabbinic law, well-established English transliterations of other Hebrew personal names are accepted in normal usage, such as Joshua, Jeremiah, Isaiah or Jesus, for which the original pronunciations may be unknown.[16][17] They also point out that "the English form Jehovah is quite simply an Anglicized form of Yehovah,"[16] and preserves the four Hebrew consonants "YHVH" (with the introduction of the "J" sound in English).[16][18][19] Some argue that Jehovah is preferable to Yahweh, based on their conclusion that the Tetragrammaton was likely tri-syllabic originally, and that modern forms should therefore also have three syllables.[20]"

36

New Light, New Light!

by BoogerMan in

more accurately known as a reversal of a long held 'truth.'.

september 2022 study watchtower - par.

14 p. 18 - "in the past, we understood jesus’ words to refer to the deeds the resurrected ones will practice after their resurrection; that is, some will come to life and practice good things while others will come to life and practice vile things.

Disillusioned JW

Further thought: Or, maybe the WT's translators of the NWT were thinking those referred to (in Romans 6:7) as those who have "died" referred to those who died in Christ rather than all (other than Jesus) who have died, but that other WT literature instead used the interpretation off every human (other than Jesus) who died.

36

New Light, New Light!

by BoogerMan in

more accurately known as a reversal of a long held 'truth.'.

september 2022 study watchtower - par.

14 p. 18 - "in the past, we understood jesus’ words to refer to the deeds the resurrected ones will practice after their resurrection; that is, some will come to life and practice good things while others will come to life and practice vile things.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze and others, I notice that the WT is still saying that people are acquitted upon death and I notice that the WT is still saying that those resurrected upon Earth will judged by their deeds performed during the 1,000 years. I see that mentioned in paragraphs 15 through 18 of the study article. There paragraph 18 of 'STUDY ARTICLE 39: Is Your Name in “the Book of Life”?' of the "The Watchtower—Study Edition | September 2022" says the following.

'Based on what “deeds” will resurrected ones be judged? Will it be the deeds they practiced before they died? No! Remember, they were acquitted of their previous sins when they died. Here, then, “their deeds” cannot be deeds from their former life. Rather, these must refer to their deeds in response to their training in the new world. Even such faithful men as Noah, Samuel, David, and Daniel will have to learn about Jesus Christ and exercise faith in his sacrifice. How much more so will the unrighteous!'

Paragraph 16 of the same study article says the following. "What about those who practiced vile things before they died? Although their sins were canceled at death, they have not established a record of faithfulness. They do not have their names written in the book of life. ... Only if these unrighteous ones reject their former wicked course of life and dedicate themselves to Jehovah can they have their names written in the book of life."

As a result, according to the current WT view the JW woman who killed her family and then committed suicide would still be resurrected, and the suicidal murderous JW woman would be judged by the deeds she committed during the thousand years. According to the article, upon her resurrection her name would not be in the book of life, but that if she rejects a wicked course during the 1,000 years then at the end of the 1,000 years her name could become written in the book of life.

Sea Breeze I appreciate you mentioning that though the NWT says "acquitted" in Romans 6:7 that the KJV says "freed". I notice that the NASB also says "freed" in that verse and that such wording to me seems more in harmony with verses 4-6 of the same chapter.

Folks, I notice that the Life Application Study Bible, New American Standard Bible--Updated Edition (copyright 2000 by Zondervan) says that Christians who have put their faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ are acquitted by Jesus. In the note for Romans 6:6 it says in part the following. 'The power and penalty of sin died with Christ on the cross. Our "old self," our sinful nature, died once for all, so we are freed from its power. .... And it is this power of sin at work in our body that is defeated. Paul has already stated that through faith in Christ we stand acquitted, "not guilty" before God. Here Paul emphasizes that we need no longer live under sin's power. God does not take us out of the world or make us robots--we will still feel like sinning, and sometimes we will sin. The difference is that before we were saved we were slaves to our sinful nature, but now we can choose to live for Christ (see Galatians 2;20).'

Notice that the Study Bible used the word "acquitted' in reference to what Paul said in Romans prior to Romans 6:6. Maybe the WT wrote "acquitted" (instead of "freed") in the NWT translation of Romans 6:7 due to a misunderstanding of what Paul said in earlier verses in Romans of being acquitted by Jesus, as a result of Christians being baptized metaphorically into Christ's death (verses 3-5).

Notice also that the Study Bible says that 'born again' Christians sometimes will sin, but (according to scripture) they are no longer slaves to sin and/or no longer practice sin. I think that description applies also to devout JWs who have an earthly hope. For example, ever since several years prior to my baptism as a JW (I was raised as a JW from infancy) I have striven to avoid doing sin, though according to the Bible I still committed minor sins from to time. (According to parts of the Bible all humans who ever lived, other than Jesus, have sinned). Several years prior to baptism (while still teen and a minor) I accepted the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ and I continued to accept that later while I was a JW and later while I was an independent Christian. That is despite me having the expectation of living on a paradise Earth instead going to heaven. [But in the final two years of me being an independent Christian I thought I might be in heaven for a period time, such as during the great tribulation and maybe also during the 1,000 years.] But how is that striving to avoid doing wrong, and that living a mostly morally good life any different from that of many people who were never Christians, and even of atheists who never were Christians? I think it is no different, except that the motivations might be different in some respects (such as not due to a commitment to Christ).

Many atheists realize that certain actions are bad and unwise and thus rationally strive to avoid doing those actions. For example many atheists have never murdered, never stole, never committed adultery, never committed fornication, are law abiding, and have striven to always tell truth and to avoid being mean, etc.

36

New Light, New Light!

by BoogerMan in

more accurately known as a reversal of a long held 'truth.'.

september 2022 study watchtower - par.

14 p. 18 - "in the past, we understood jesus’ words to refer to the deeds the resurrected ones will practice after their resurrection; that is, some will come to life and practice good things while others will come to life and practice vile things.

Disillusioned JW

Well the WT's new interpretation of John 5:27 (as described in the first post of this topic thread) is now in harmony with Daniel 12:2, and the Bible's stated time frame for the fulfillment of that is revealed in Daniel 12:1. It also means that the WT teaching is now closer to evangelical Christianity, for it means that the WT is saying a person's 'fate', regarding whether or not one will receive eternal life, is determined before their death.

I wonder if this means the has, or soon will, change their teaching those who become resurrected in the Paradise New Order.

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

For clarity, I reword the last sentence of my prior post to say the following. "I thus think that JWs think that they receive some of the same benefits (namely a prospect for eternal life and for forgiveness of sins) that they believe will be received by the anointed ones who are thought to be in the new covenant."

263

What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?

by Vanderhoven7 in

it seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.

who is the way, the truth and the life?

(john 14:6).

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze, I think it can accurately be said that the WT teaches (even if only indirectly) that the 'anointed' governing body members of the JW religion act as mediators between the "other sheep" (prospective "great crowd members) and Jesus Christ. As a result non-anointed JWs believe that as long as they remain in good standing as JWs (and stay within what the WT teaches is Jehovah God's modern day Ark, namely the WT's JW religion) till the end of their life (if they die before the great tribulation) or until through the great tribulation and Armageddon, then they will very likely get salvation as eternal life on Earth. Furthermore the JWs believe essential teachings of the WT which must held to obtain eternal include those found in the NWT which the Bible at John 3:16 and John 17:3 attributes to sayings of Jesus Christ.

One time, the WT in an organization chart showed the governing body of 'anointed' ones as in between Jesus Christ and the non-anointed JWs (or the congregations). I thus think that JWs think that they receive some of the same benefits (namely a prospect for eternal life and for forgiveness of sins) as the anointed ones who are thought to be the new covenant.